Probe Length on E-Collars

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Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Russell Vrhovac on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Anyone out there have an issue with the E-Collar leaving dime-sized scabs where the probes contact the dogs neck? Sometimes if my dog wears the collar, and it is intermittant, the scabs happen. I was having problems before with not getting contact with the shorter probes but I may try them again as she usually only needs the beeper for correction.
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sores

Post  Jim Donofrio on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:01 pm

e-collars cause them sores all the time
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Eddie Kershaw on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:20 pm

Jim Donofrio wrote:e-collars cause them sores all the time

my dog never suffers from that problem, because I wont use any form of a coller on a dog. Laughing

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YIKES!

Post  John H on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:27 pm

Sounds like two issues...1) Collar is on real tight and 2) the setting ur using is too high! I did the same thing to my last dog and found that the scabs were from burns do to me having the setting too high. Just my $0.02...
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collar

Post  Jim Donofrio on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:46 pm

John not true I never corrected Pearl and she had sores and the collar was on her properly/ fortunantly I dont have to use a collar on her and she will never have one on again
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Not to stir the pot on the collar v no collar folks.

Post  Russell Vrhovac on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:32 pm

I'm gonna try the shorter probes once the sores heal and will get back to you guys on this thread. I have heard it explained that if the collar is not tight enough the probes will shift repeatedly and rub a raw spot. I have not heard that using the "shock" causes sores. Actually, much like a bad episode of "JackAss" I tried the collar on myself (on my neck) and the highest I took it to was 3 on a G3 model and it sucked but I have never personally taken it above 2 on Sam. I mostly use the tone now and as a backup use the "nick" on her. I feel like others that if you train them well that you should not have to use a collar but in my experience even the best of dogs break and will ignore a whistle and a beep on a collar.

Jim Donofrio wrote:John not true I never corrected Pearl and she had sores and the collar was on her properly/ fortunantly I dont have to use a collar on her and she will never have one on again
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  David "swampy" L on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:41 pm

John Holz wrote:Sounds like two issues...1) Collar is on real tight and 2) the setting ur using is too high! I did the same thing to my last dog and found that the scabs were from burns do to me having the setting too high. Just my $0.02...

100% incorrect.......especially the "burns"

actually the tighter you have the collar on the better....The scabs come from the collar rubbing aaginst the skin while the dog is running & swimming(working)..If the collar is to loose it will actually cause bigger sores!

Just alternate the side you put the collar on every few hunts......The scabs really don't bother them that much



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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Capt. Larry M on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:55 pm

tight is better the collar being too loose causes the irriation. dont leave the collar on longer than necessary. A collar is a great correction tool if used properly
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collar

Post  Jim Donofrio on Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:20 pm

as Dave said better tight and there is a right tightness but no matter what through movement they rub and cause sores that will bleed
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Davey Welsh on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:00 pm

This is my "newfound" perspective on the e-collar. If you need to be using the e-collar while in the duck boat or blind, you didn't train the dog well enough prior to the season. I may catch some flak for that, but halfway through this last duck season I stopped putting the collar on Caly, mainly because I didn't have to use it! She broke on me twice when I didn't have the collar on and the next bird that came in, I physically grabbed her scruff and said "NO" when she tried to stand up. That fixed her breaking.

I think the sores come from wearing the collar for prolonged periods of time, which is primarly why I took my collar off of her while hunting. Besides, I am out there to hunt, not train and have to make corrections on my dog.

Now training is a different story and I find the e-collar a very valuable training tool. Because my girl is so sensitive to pressure, I rarely work above a level 2. I have shocked myself on a level 2 and I laugh because it tingles. It all depends on what training program you follow. My program is from Evan Graham but also 99% of the guys I train with also use the collar.

I think if you can train your dog the level required for the field, than you shouldn't "need" the collar every day while hunting. Think about the hunt tests, why don't they allow e-collars?

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collar

Post  Jim Donofrio on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:05 pm

I agree Dave and when Pearl ran triala and hunt tests there is no collar so I don t hunt with one she got sores training this past summer and thats it no more fucking collar
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Capt. Larry M on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:26 pm

Dave when you get some training under your belt and you teach blinds you will know why you need the collar. Cast refusals etc. I'll let Tex chime in if he cares to, his dog Luke is a win away from his AFC title and he wears a collar everday out hunting and training if you need to get the correction in you do so. There's a BIG difference between a "well trained dog" and a "meat dog"
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Post  Jim Donofrio on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:27 pm

exactly larry a well trained dog does not need a collar
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Capt. Larry M on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:31 pm

Jim Donofrio wrote:exactly larry a well trained dog does not need a collar

Jim I think you need to change your name from "The God Father" to "The Expert" haven't seen you around the field trial circuit much
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collar

Post  Jim Donofrio on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:53 pm

Larry never claimed to be an expert but I have an expert dog(that doesnt need a collar) that I would put up against any dogs you have and I dont appreciate the name calling if you want to get personal let me know
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Capt. Larry M on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:57 pm

Jim Donofrio wrote:Larry never claimed to be an expert but I have an expert dog(that doesnt need a collar) that I would put up against any dogs you have and I dont appreciate the name calling if you want to get personal let me know

whats The Name calling? The Expert come on Jim let's Rumble Smile
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Davey Welsh on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:26 pm

Capt. Larry M wrote:Dave when you get some training under your belt and you teach blinds you will know why you need the collar. Cast refusals etc. I'll let Tex chime in if he cares to, his dog Luke is a win away from his AFC title and he wears a collar everday out hunting and training if you need to get the correction in you do so. There's a BIG difference between a "well trained dog" and a "meat dog"

So what hunt tests and trials have you run? This has nothing to do with test and trials, its about having a well trained hunting retriever. The amount of times that I needed to apply a correction this last season were not worth the discomfort of her wearing the collar all day.

I use the collar when training and I do not dispute its effectiveness. It conditions the dog to the proper response. Once the proper response (or habit) has been conditioned, then the dog should be 99% reliable to behave as expected.

I trained all last year with Dave L. in conjunction with Smartworks and if I have learned anything, it is that we are conditioning our dogs to perform to a certain expectation. The e-collar is a conditioning tool. If you have to constantly make corrections with the collar, then the response has not been conditioned properly. Perfect example - last year I had trouble getting Caly to sit on the whistle. Dave "Swampy" helped me understand that this was nothing more than a conditioning drill. I went back to collar conditioning "sit" on the whistle and now she sits on the whistle 99% of the time without the collar nick.

Will I need the collar when teaching blind work? Absolutely. Because I need to condition the response, ie. remote sit, casting etc. But if she becomes properly trained and conditioned, then I should rarely need the collar to perform a blind retrieve. Which brings me to my next point. If the dog only needs a collar correction 2-3 times during a season, is it worth having the collar on everyday? I guess thats up to the handler, but I treat my dog like she's my best friend and if I don't need to be putting scabs on her neck then I won't.

Finally, how are all of you guys able to give your dogs corrections when your shooting ducks? I have yet to find a way to put the "nic" button on the forearm of my shotgun. So when I raise my gun to shoot, and she breaks, I've lost the ability to correct her anyway. So with the exception of blinds, the collar can't be used in time anyway. But if I need to burn the shit out of my dog on a blind retrieve, I'm just starting the motor and getting the bird myself.


Capt. Larry M wrote:
Jim I think you need to change your name from "The God Father" to "The Expert" haven't seen you around the field trial circuit much

Really? Jim is one of the founders of the forum and he has been titled "The Godfather" by me. Maybe we should come up with a title for you. Very Happy

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Dog Breaks on shot or before.

Post  Russell Vrhovac on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:34 pm

If I raise my gun to shoot and the dog breaks (hasn't happened yet, but if it did) I don't shoot and make the correction. My hunting partners also know that if a correction to a dog is warranted the hunt stops until it has been corrected and then we continue on. It seems the more I hunt with my dog the more I realize I hunt so the dog can be a retriever.

Davey Welsh wrote:
Capt. Larry M wrote:Dave when you get some training under your belt and you teach blinds you will know why you need the collar. Cast refusals etc. I'll let Tex chime in if he cares to, his dog Luke is a win away from his AFC title and he wears a collar everday out hunting and training if you need to get the correction in you do so. There's a BIG difference between a "well trained dog" and a "meat dog"

So what hunt tests and trials have you run? This has nothing to do with test and trials, its about having a well trained hunting retriever. The amount of times that I needed to apply a correction this last season were not worth the discomfort of her wearing the collar all day.

I use the collar when training and I do not dispute its effectiveness. It conditions the dog to the proper response. Once the proper response (or habit) has been conditioned, then the dog should be 99% reliable to behave as expected.

I trained all last year with Dave L. in conjunction with Smartworks and if I have learned anything, it is that we are conditioning our dogs to perform to a certain expectation. The e-collar is a conditioning tool. If you have to constantly make corrections with the collar, then the response has not been conditioned properly. Perfect example - last year I had trouble getting Caly to sit on the whistle. Dave "Swampy" helped me understand that this was nothing more than a conditioning drill. I went back to collar conditioning "sit" on the whistle and now she sits on the whistle 99% of the time without the collar nick.

Will I need the collar when teaching blind work? Absolutely. Because I need to condition the response, ie. remote sit, casting etc. But if she becomes properly trained and conditioned, then I should rarely need the collar to perform a blind retrieve. Which brings me to my next point. If the dog only needs a collar correction 2-3 times during a season, is it worth having the collar on everyday? I guess thats up to the handler, but I treat my dog like she's my best friend and if I don't need to be putting scabs on her neck then I won't.

Finally, how are all of you guys able to give your dogs corrections when your shooting ducks? I have yet to find a way to put the "nic" button on the forearm of my shotgun. So when I raise my gun to shoot, and she breaks, I've lost the ability to correct her anyway. So with the exception of blinds, the collar can't be used in time anyway. But if I need to burn the shit out of my dog on a blind retrieve, I'm just starting the motor and getting the bird myself.


Capt. Larry M wrote:
Jim I think you need to change your name from "The God Father" to "The Expert" haven't seen you around the field trial circuit much

Really? Jim is one of the founders of the forum and he has been titled "The Godfather" by me. Maybe we should come up with a title for you. Very Happy
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Capt. Larry M on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:48 pm

Davey if you would like you can come over to see my collection of Ribbons be happy to show you. let me just give you annalogy. I have a $3k camera I dont know anything about using it by I have one, for me to come on here and profess that I know something about photography would be foolish naturally I would defer to you an accomplished photographer like yourself. I have been training for a few years now and like anything else its an apprenticeship. When you learn and train with some of the top amateur trainers in the east you pick up a thing or two. Is my dog a "well trained retriever" by no means to have a well trained retriever you need to be out training 5 days a week between work, having 3 young children and running a guide service time is slim, so I don't even try to compete in field trials.

I know who has helped you along and trains with you and I am sure that they have taught you alot, that's a good group but until you have taken a dog thru basics and then transition and expect your dog to perform at a high level you will eventually understand the need to run with a collar. But if you are happy with a dog that makes 20yd to 50yd retrieves in optimal conditions on singles then more power to you, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you want a dog to work at high level doing 200 to 350 yd blind retireves on open water then you need a collar.
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Capt. Larry M on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:53 pm

[quote="Russell Vrhovac"]If I raise my gun to shoot and the dog breaks (hasn't happened yet, but if it did) I don't shoot and make the correction. My hunting partners also know that if a correction to a dog is warranted the hunt stops until it has been corrected and then we continue on. It seems the more I hunt with my dog the more I realize I hunt so the dog can be a retriever.

Well said Russell, dog breaks no bird. I unfortunately dont have that luxury but I have a steady dog

One other thing Davey just cause the dog wears the collar doesnt mean everytime they are out there they a correction days go by with no corrections but it's there in case you need it
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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Ryan McGinty on Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:18 am

i had a problem with the sores with my old sport dog collar. it would happen when hunting only for a couple hours in the morning with no corrections. i think it was just from the dog shaking off getting out of the water. i talked to a sport dog rep last year at shot show. he said same thing tighter the better. right before this season my old sport dog collar broke a charging port. i sent it back to sport dog and they sent me there new one which is a smaller unit and seems to fit the dogs neck better and i have not seen sores from this one.

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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Eddie Kershaw on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:12 am

Capt. Larry M wrote:Davey if you would like you can come over to see my collection of Ribbons be happy to show you. let me just give you annalogy. I have a $3k camera I dont know anything about using it by I have one, for me to come on here and profess that I know something about photography would be foolish naturally I would defer to you an accomplished photographer like yourself. I have been training for a few years now and like anything else its an apprenticeship. When you learn and train with some of the top amateur trainers in the east you pick up a thing or two. Is my dog a "well trained retriever" by no means to have a well trained retriever you need to be out training 5 days a week between work, having 3 young children and running a guide service time is slim, so I don't even try to compete in field trials.

I know who has helped you along and trains with you and I am sure that they have taught you alot, that's a good group but until you have taken a dog thru basics and then transition and expect your dog to perform at a high level you will eventually understand the need to run with a collar. But if you are happy with a dog that makes 20yd to 50yd retrieves in optimal conditions on singles then more power to you, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you want a dog to work at high level doing 200 to 350 yd blind retireves on open water then you need a collar.

Larry
If your dog as got to retrieve 350 yards on open water mate, its not a e-coller you need on your dog, its your boat, has you know Im not a big fan of e-collers and when it comes down to training, I think getting a dog in the first place of the right breeding is more than half the battle.
I personally think a lot of you guys over there try to make racehorses out of carthorses because of the backyard sales. I dont know anybody here in the UK that uses e-collers and we dont tend to use any collers on our gundogs aspecily when they are working.



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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Davey Welsh on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:59 am

Capt. Larry M wrote:But if you want a dog to work at high level doing 200 to 350 yd blind retireves on open water then you need a collar.

I understand what you're saying Larry, but what about a 300yrd retrieve requires a collar? Because the dog is so far they can't hear you, so you need to electrify their ass? Laughing

I still think that for the guy who is more interested in a gun dog than a trial dog, that he should have the dog trained sufficiently enough to not need a collar in the field. Thats just my opinion.

The way that I hunt, I rarely if ever, have a bird go down at 200-300 yards and even if a bird did go down that distance, I'm taking the boat to get the bird. My dog is not built for a water retrieve of that distance and I would rather not risk getting her injured anyway.

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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Travis Bruce on Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:41 am

I hunt rice and bean fields in east arkansas.... 300 yard retrieves are a daily occurance, espeically if its windy. A dog hearing you is not the issue (unless hes breaking ice) because birds sail down wind 99% of the time.... duh. You'd really be surprised how many times a bird flies out like nothing is wrong, and he gets 300-400 yards and fall stone cold dead. A lot of hunting situations don't allow for you to see that, ours does. If you send a dog 300 yards across rice levees, crosswinds, angling turn rows, and then having to let him hunt at the end to come up with a bird... your definition of what well trained would change real quick.... could we get up and go get those birds ourself? sure. But why intrupt a hunt when you can get out and do something most people had no ideal dogs could even do... the shooting may be only fair (in a year like this year), but the retreives always get talked about over breakfast. Always... sometimes for years.

Loose collars rub sores. travis

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Re: Probe Length on E-Collars

Post  Davey Welsh on Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:29 am

You bring up a good point Travis, and that is that we all have differenty types and styles of hunting. Most that know me, know that I primarily hunt puddle ducks, occassionally Brant and divers on the bay. So for me, 90% of the retrieves my dogs makes are going to be 10-50yrds in backwater creeks and marshes. Yes, we do get the occassional bird that sails, but I'd rather take the boat, get the bird and get back to the hunt, rather than handle the dog for 30mins. Not only that, Dave L. made a good point when I last talked to him, and that is that very long water retrieves do 2 things to a dog: they exert a lot of energy and it increases the chances that the dog may not even get the bird (bird dives, doesn't come up etc.).

The guys that I train with have a very simple philosophy and its one that I love. We always set the dogs up to succeed. It helps build their confidence and increases their drive as well as their ability. So realistically, I don't EVER see myself sending my dog on a 300yrd blind. Maybe on land, because I ain't walking that damn far (and I've never had a bird go down at 300yrds since I've been hunting). I have been taught in training BEYOND what we expect them to do the on the hunt because the dog is going to be more confident in just about every situation.

For me, personally, I consider a well trained retriever one that is obedient, quiet and steady and doesn't make me have to start the motor up for 99% of the retrieves. This past season, I can count on one hand where I wouldn't have sent the dog anyway because the bird went down too far, and these were situations on the big water. I don't want my dog swimming 200+yrds on the open bay, its not safe in my opinion. Ideally I would like see my dog be capable of land blinds up to 300yrds and water blinds up to 100yrds. If she can do that, I would be as happy as can be.

Keep in mind, I am training my first gun dog and I've probably learned more than she has in the last year and a half. So I am the last person to ask for advice, but I train with a very sharp group of guys who have realistic expecations for their dogs. A few of them even have Master titles.

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