Training straight lines

I remember a tip that someone from our training group had mentioned. When teaching your dog to take straight lines, take two folding chairs and set them apart far enough so the dog runs between them, then gradually close the distance of the chairs until the dog is running right between them only a few feet apart. Supposed to help get the dog running straight lines for blinds! I'm gonna try it.

Davey
This how we tend to differ regards the way we train our dogs, here in the UK, if our dogs are going off line we tend to give them a whisle to stop, then give them a hand signal to put them back on line, once in the in the general area we whisle them again to stop and give them another handsignal to seek for the birds. This is only on blind retrieves and saves a lot of shooting time when the birds are on the move

Eddie and Davey,

I also use a "seek" style command but not a hand signal. I use the verbal command "hunt". It tells her to start looking around in that vicinity and lets her use her nose. This kind of hits on some of the long distance retrieve issues we have talked about in other Topics. Since most of my retrieves are less than 100 yards I just use a verbal command, "hunt" but only once I have Sam's attention and she is sitting. Further retrieves than that is as my discretion considering the dog's ability to hear me or see me and water conditions. In my opinion it takes the owners trust of the retriever and builds confidence in the team to make a retrieve. Just my two cents.

Eddie Kershaw wrote:
Davey
This how we tend to differ regards the way we train our dogs, here in the UK, if our dogs are going off line we tend to give them a whisle to stop, then give them a hand signal to put them back on line, once in the in the general area we whisle them again to stop and give them another handsignal to seek for the birds. This is only on blind retrieves and saves a lot of shooting time when the birds are on the move

Eddie, I'm talking about teaching a dog to take a straight line on a blind. The straighter the line, the less need to give hand signals. You've got to teach the dog to take a straight line on a blind. If the dog needs correction, then you whistle sit them and give a cast, but if your dog runs in circles then your casting is gonna get crazy and you might as well give up on blinds.

Russel, your "hunt" command is completely different than a blind retrieve. That is a good technique to teach a dog for thay bird that goes down in the brush and you can't direct the dog to the fall. I also let my dog hunt for marks in thick brush or tall grass. But the purpose of teaching a dog blinds is to get them to to take direction from the handler, not follow their own intuition. What we teach our dog on blinds is not something that comes natural to the dog.

Davey
I have never had a problem with my dogs running around in circles due to the fact I teach them diectional control and stoping on the whisle,
this along with my hand signals I can can direct Amber where ever I want to her to go, plus if I want her to hunt a persific spot, I just stop her on the whisle and make a circle with my hand and she will hunt that area.

So you don't do lining exercises with your dog? You're okay with her taking a bad line and then rely on casting to get her back?

Davey Welsh wrote:So you don't do lining exercises with your dog? You're okay with her taking a bad line and then rely on casting to get her back?

Davey
9 times out of ten she takes the correct line that I point too but, but that one time she does,nt that is the way I bring her back into line, if you do enough forwad retrieves with your dog, and point the line properly and give a hand signal your dog should take that line, now Im going to give you a little bit of advice that I was given many years ago, and that is before you start to train your dog, train yourself and that means learn your hand signals and show them properly to the dog when you are giving it a command, and no half hearted gestures, if a dog knows what you want him or her to do it is only to willing to please. All training sessions should be a game because that is how they learn through play. you should start on a good note and finish on a good note and not try to put to much in the dogs head at once, that is why I said in my first post I know we all have differnt ways we train our dogs and the mainthing is to get the results that you require for your type of hunting. However this thread is not about the way we train our dogs, it is all about what Eqiment we are using, and now I have expressed my view I dont intend getting in any arguments over it.

Eddie Kershaw wrote:
Davey
This how we tend to differ regards the way we train our dogs, here in the UK, if our dogs are going off line we tend to give them a whisle to stop, then give them a hand signal to put them back on line, once in the in the general area we whisle them again to stop and give them another handsignal to seek for the birds. This is only on blind retrieves and saves a lot of shooting time when the birds are on the move

I just responded to this reply Eddie, but apparently its the UK way or the highway huh?

Davey
The way you responed to my post, it seemed to me as if you was questioning my way of training and that was,nt what the thread is all about, it is a thread about what equipment we use . I did,nt post a thread on training because I know everybody may have different views on what the trainiig of gundog should be, so there could,nt be any arguments or ill feeling.

Davey and Eddie,
I thinks we may be confusing real hunting scenarios with competition or maybe some of the comments correct meanings were lost in translation/typing. In my limited exposure to formal dog training I see a lot of things that make sense and some that do not (maybe just not yet however... ). My previous comment about the "hunt" or "seek" command was inferring that while on a blind retrieve, instead of using the whistle maybe 3 or 4 times we get the dog to the vicinity of the mark and let the dogs nose do the rest. I use this method in conjunction with a blind retrieve. As I do not compete Sam I do am not worried about number of whistle blows costing points rather the number of whistle blows spooking birds that may be in the area or interfering with someone elses hunt. In the end it is about getting the dog to the bird and the bird and dog back to me. I do lining exercises with Sam and while she is not always on a straight line, and she does take casts well, her nose compensates for what lacks. I would estimate about 50% of the time my birds go down in some sort of cover, while ideally her going on a straight line, doesn't mean that the bird may still be in that spot. I have casted, corrected, and fussed at her several times for veering off course only to find out that were she wanted to go was the correct location for the mark/duck.

Davey Welsh wrote:So you don't do lining exercises with your dog? You're okay with her taking a bad line and then rely on casting to get her back?

Russell over the years mate I have found that it is not the whisle that spooks birds but the human voice.

Eddie Kershaw wrote:Russell over the years mate I have found that it is not the whisle that spooks birds but the human voice.

Russell
I think over here in the UK we have a compleatly different way of waterfowling than what you have in the states, Im in a club and we have a 150 members on any given day you are lucky if you bump in to anyone due to the fact that we have 9 miles of shooting, that is all coast line ,when I go out its normaly is just me and the dog acationly I will go out with a mate but as I have said its just me and the dog, over there in the states a lot of you guys tend to hunt together, so me using a whisle is not a problem and Im not upseting anybody.

Eddie,

You are right about the hunting in the US and groups people tend to hunt together. It is pretty competitive here for good "water" and especially in Virginia as the duck blind laws make it damn near difficult to find any water to hunt with either a stationary box blind or boat. I am not sure how it is in the northeastern US but I am assuming it is as competitive there too. Just earlier this season I got chastised by a deer hunting club that had leased some land that I was training adjacent to. I have since secured that location to train but only through a lucky meeting with someone else who trains there too. As for the whistle and noise issue, I generally don't even need to use either as most retrieves are not too difficult but I figure after a couple of shotgun blasts any ducks in the vicinity know whats going on especially late in the season like this past one where we didn't really get any "new ducks" migrating. You get to enjoy 9 miles of coast to hunt but you too are a member of a club with lots of members which I assume means that non-members do not have access to that coast line. That kind of priveledge in the US is either public land OR a VERY expensive membership.

Eddie Kershaw wrote:

Eddie Kershaw wrote:Russell over the years mate I have found that it is not the whisle that spooks birds but the human voice.

Russell
I think over here in the UK we have a compleatly different way of waterfowling than what you have in the states, Im in a club and we have a 150 members on any given day you are lucky if you bump in to anyone due to the fact that we have 9 miles of shooting, that is all coast line ,when I go out its normaly is just me and the dog acationly I will go out with a mate but as I have said its just me and the dog, over there in the states a lot of you guys tend to hunt together, so me using a whisle is not a problem and Im not upseting anybody.

Russell most clubs in the UK offer out day tickets for about £15-20 a day as long as you are a member of the BASC( the govening body of shooting in the UK.) I am also permited to take a guest has long as he is a BASC member. If I so wanted, I could apply to all the varius clubs around the coast of Gr Britain and just have day tickets and I would need,t to be in any club as long as I have BASC membership. I am now considering getting my self a motorhome and just doing that for a season or too, but I will still stay in my club, we can also get day tickets to several reserves.

Eddie,
Thats a great system! If I ever get to cross the big pond I may have to give you a call to see first hand if the hunting there is as good as I hear it is.

Eddie Kershaw wrote:Russell most clubs in the UK offer out day tickets for about £15-20 a day as long as you are a member of the BASC( the govening body of shooting in the UK.) I am also permited to take a guest has long as he is a BASC member. If I so wanted, I could apply to all the varius clubs around the coast of Gr Britain and just have day tickets and I would need,t to be in any club as long as I have BASC membership. I am now considering getting my self a motorhome and just doing that for a season or too, but I will still stay in my club, we can also get day tickets to several reserves.

Russell Vrhovac wrote:Eddie,
Thats a great system! If I ever get to cross the big pond I may have to give you a call to see first hand if the hunting there is as good as I hear it is.

Eddie Kershaw wrote:Russell most clubs in the UK offer out day tickets for about £15-20 a day as long as you are a member of the BASC( the govening body of shooting in the UK.) I am also permited to take a guest has long as he is a BASC member. If I so wanted, I could apply to all the varius clubs around the coast of Gr Britain and just have day tickets and I would need,t to be in any club as long as I have BASC membership. I am now considering getting my self a motorhome and just doing that for a season or too, but I will still stay in my club, we can also get day tickets to several reserves.

Russell you can also as a forain visiter get BASC membership for just one month, thats what a lot of people do when they visit the UK and they want to shoot.

Pull out da stops... ya got no ideal... we very often cut and strip fields for training, cut brush and cane for water series, heck year before last we made a flooded corn field out of cane on a technical pond... took appoximately 5 pick up loads of cane and stuck them up in rows like corn! Just like fly fisherman 'match the hatch' we try hard to replicate condtions we're gonna run tests in, and/or dogs are going to hunt in.

running a dog between 2 chairs... is more of a no no drill to teach a dog to go where sent, and if they flair, to be able to deal with being called back and resent. Move up to simplify, move back to condtion, and make the return be thru the obstcal, always the return. the return is an obedicence function, where as the send is for a retreive. dogs will do things for a retreive they dont nessessarily understand they HAVE too, so the return is where your teaching actually is. travis

Travis Bruce wrote:Pull out da stops... ya got no ideal... we very often cut and strip fields for training, cut brush and cane for water series, heck year before last we made a flooded corn field out of cane on a technical pond... took appoximately 5 pick up loads of cane and stuck them up in rows like corn! Just like fly fisherman 'match the hatch' we try hard to replicate condtions we're gonna run tests in, and/or dogs are going to hunt in.

running a dog between 2 chairs... is more of a no no drill to teach a dog to go where sent, and if they flair, to be able to deal with being called back and resent. Move up to simplify, move back to condtion, and make the return be thru the obstcal, always the return. the return is an obedicence function, where as the send is for a retreive. dogs will do things for a retreive they dont nessessarily understand they HAVE too, so the return is where your teaching actually is. travis

Interesting perspective Travis. Thanks!

To teach a dog to run straight, ignoring the factors that cause it to deviate from a straight line, starts from the very beginging in your dogs blind running career. The attitude they start blinds with, is the attitude they will pretty much have from then on... same ways when it comes to how they deal with distance, and factors. Our first set of pattern blinds, will be a 3 legged pattern... teach one by iding the pile, and running it, and backing up as you can. Hopefully the first day you can back up all the way to the truck... 150-180 yards. Second day, run the first days blind cold (i.e. don't have to show it), even if from half distance, and then back up and repete. Then teach left (or right leg), iding and backing up as they run. By starting close, your past the suction of the first blind, but as you back up, the first blind comes more into play... hopefully second day you back up to the truck again, and can run both legs... 3rd day, run first then second, then plant the 3rd blind iding it with dog, and back up to truck... great now you can run a 3 legged pattern blind. Then I go somewhere else and run another 3 legged pattern blind, moving much quicker this time. I add diversions to these pattern blinds.... i.e. something to throw the dog off line. a gunner in the field, run the blind past the gunner... throw the mark, pick it up, run the blind. marks, cover (drag a tree out in the way, or anything), cut strips, diverisons tossed off line, posion birds... if its fixing to storm, and 40 mph winds, run those pattern blinds... the point is not to have a dog that can do all this advanced stuff from 2 sets of blinds, its to from the very beginging show dogs how to overcome factors to go to a known desistation... take the desistnation off their mind and they can concentrate on the path to get there... its much easier to get a dog to go straight and overcome factors when they know the desistnation. On a cold blind, they dont know the desisnation, a factor has much much more influence on the dog. True theres a time when they have to deal with real factors in cold blind situations, but like all things dog, your early cold blinds are going to be simple and then you add to them.

When a dog starts running cold blinds, I place my blinds where dogs are going to go... that dark spot, the low spot, the bottom of the hill, the open spot right of the tree instead of the base of the tree... Distance is reduced somewhat, but I still want ample distance for a dog to think GET IT when they hear a dead bird cue. I reduce other factors... run the simple cold blind, with a dog fresh out of the truck thats ready to go, and always be ready to repete it, or more up and simplify if I have trouble. Then I might do marks, and return and run the same blind, now with the factor of a gunner, or a mark, or a gun station in the field. Falling back on the dog has already been to the blind, the destnation is known, when the dog caves to the suction I can get a cast to the blind... the path becomes the lesson, not the desestnation....

I never repete marks in a session.. I dont want dogs going back to old falls ever. One less thing I have to work on if they are never allowed to. However, I got no choice but to repete blinds... most everyone does, because they're are only so many decent blinds on a peice of dirt to run. By a dog KNOWING where they are going, they can deal better with the factors and progress at a really rapid rate. Within about a month of running blinds, most dogs I have running the same land blinds as my grand dogs... without as much precesion of course, but running them. Then when they come across blinds in a hunting situation, or in a test, generally 90% of the time they are totally underwhelmed.. if a dog will run pretty much straight for 75-100 yards, 90% of blinds hunting never reuqire a whistle... and most hunt blinds are cheese.

they're lots of other situations for repeting blinds... but thats for another post... travis

Now Travis I going to bite the bullit and anwser your post and Im looking for a discusion rather than agrument so here go,s
First of all we both train our dogs differenty on either sides of the pond and our types of hunting are a lot different, my type of hunting is just the oposite to what you are doing , but when I train my dog I tend to kill two birds with one stone as to speak, combining the memory retrieve and going out in a straight line all at once, by having the dog watch me throwing a dummy then putting a leash on the dog and walking back 50yards to start off with, the dummy is always thrown into thick cover, over a period of time the distance increases, by teaching like I do the dog always go.s out in a straight line and this builds her memory up, So if I manage to shoot 2 birds and I have sent her for the dead one first, then I realise that the second bird was only winged I could stop her on the whisle then send her for the winged bird and then when she comes back with the retrieve I just give her the command get back and she will run back in a straight line because she has already marked this bird and her memory starts to kick in, so you see we both have different ways that we train our dogs and the mainthing in the end is to get the results that we require for our type of shooting. Also honours mean nothing to me because I dont do feild trials and Im not going to breed my bitch, so watch use are they none.

eddie, you'll find I like to discuss more than argue.. but Im well versed in either!!! ha.

How we train is a result of 1) how we hunt and )2 how we test dogs. Although you don't test dogs, the methods in your location of training and hunting dogs are a direct result of the eveolution of methods of testing dogs. Example you gave about trailing memories is proof of this... we focus on a dogs EYES to mark birds, their EYES to get them their and remember it, and their HART and TRAINING to overcome factors to get there. God gave em a nose, thats why we use labs instead of say pigs.. ha. They learn to use their nose as part of an overall package, instead of their primary weapon. Brit trials are tagged onto shoots, where the shooters paid big cheese to be shooting, and the dogs are to compliment the shoot not the other way around. Therefore, hunting in a general direction over a realitvy fresh course will do the job. Our trials and tests are similar if not exact for every dog... a dog that hunts in a general direction on a series that has run for 4 days and had 300 dogs run on it, will never pick up a mark, let alone run a decent blind. Our hunting mirrors that, you hunt solo or with one mate, in great distances from each other... most rough shooting over there is more of a land situation than water (and almost no water in the trials as well) therefore water plays a minor part in brit style training... all american forms of testing include water tests, and trials are won in the water. You hunt with yourself, and maybe one mate. We often shoot 4,6,8 guns... when the last time your dog was asked to run a 250 yard blind past 5 40 yard falls? Probably never. Its a daily occurance for us. Or leave a short dead bird laying to run a technical blind to a bird that sailed long and might not be dead...

The differences are just that, differences. Your dogs are never going to be asked to do what our dogs do on a daily basis... and vice versa. The line between a mark and a blind in brit testing is very blurred, as often birds are simply a general direction, or out of sight. The line between marks and blinds in us testing is as clear as the difference between man and beast. A different form of testing (and hunting, as both our respective trials mirror the way our dogs are used) means a different form of training.

Can brit trained dogs make adequete gun dogs in the us. Yup. However that style of training by its processes doesnt allow what we consider 'advanced' work. The early focus on the nose, and lack of wateriness early on prevent most brit trained style dogs from ever doing really advanced (or prescision by our perspective) dog work. Now the flip side to that... most dogs hunting in the us or brit, are not well trained enough for it to matter.... Honestly, you can take a solid mid level hunt test dog and rule most any duck camp in america. An upper level hunt test dog or grand dog, and you will amaze people as much as if you had 2 heads... travis

Great posts Travis, I appreciate your insight. I have no interest in field trials and I may run my pup in a hunt test to get her a title but that would just be for fun. I train for a good hunting dog but we train using hunt test standards, because like you said, they are proven. I want my pup trained to the level of being able to pass a senior test with ease. Master would be nice and I'm sure my Golden has the talent to do that but its not a goal of mine.

Your last comment made me laugh. Last season was my Golden's first season as a duck dog and people who hunted with me couldn't stop talking about how well behaved she was and how good she was...and she was only a few months older than a year. That just lets me know that we're training down the right path and we'll continue.

Honestly its quite a cliche', but until you get to advanced work like cheating and marking concepts, we train gun dogs the exact same way as our grand dogs... train smart not hard, and its just as easy to train right as not. An obedient complient stylish hunting companion is always the goal. It doesnt matter if its a Grand prospect, a gun dog, or a rescue dog, until a certain point I train exactly the same way. Now very often I have to do something specific to overcome a problem a dog may have (espeically rescue dogs or dogs that come from other trainers, they're is almost always social issues that have to be overcome), but the meat and potatoes doesnt change.
Of all the dogs I have trained, my best work was a rescue dog that was smarter than every person he had in his life up until he met me and tj. He didnt care for people, because he had no respect for people and knew how to get out of work. In 5 months he was doing SOLID senior work and was a pleasure to be around. I had to fix the dog before I could train... and when I did, he rolled. He went to a family, with 4 kids, one a special needs child. I honestly don't know if he ever even got to go duck hunting. But I honestly don't care, he had a crappy life and I gave him a good one, and covered the vet bills I had on him. I know he never went to the line in any game, I had papers on him but they where in shambles and I didnt even give them to the new owners. But he knew what a holding blind was, and a winger blind, and the difference between a mark and blind. Overkill? All I know it was as easy to teach him right as not... travis

Travis
You carn,t compair the feild dogs to the waterfowling dogs in the UK because of the nature in the way they hunt, I said in my last post that our type of waterfowling is compleatly different to yours and where yours have got rivers pot holes and lakes, all our waterfowling is coastal with Estuarys and inlets and it is mainly done on foot walking across muddy saltins and shorelines so all the true Eglish waterfowlers that I know, train there dogs for waterwork, When Amber is not waterfowling she is doing retrieves in the river and blind retrieves on the opersit side of the river, she takes directions well and her nose is second to none and I can garantee if there is a bird down she will find it. I am very pleased with the way she is coming along, she is steady and wont break and is quiet when she sits with me in a gully, we tend to use gullys a lot instead of blinds due to traveling light, this is how I train to suit my needs

Eddie, thats exactly what Im talking about 'the differences'. Water work to you means swimming from one side of a river to the other, putting the dog down wind and giving a hunt command or let its nose take over... Water work to me means getting in and out of the water, casting off one point where the dogs already been to get a mark, and swiming past the next... channels. re-entries, angle entries... An average day of training or testing is more technical than most any duck hunt... 90% of the training for 10% of the retreives is how we look at it.. again, overkill? very likely. but i know a whole mess of british trainers, and never seen one of them with technical water! hehe. The differences... travis